Personally, i'm fine with guns, just not the people who use them(i wonder sometimes at the odd coincidences,etc...in life )

"The calculation of 4.25 million guns clashes with the Newspoll study conducted over recent months at the request of the Federal government. This poll suggests that there are now only 2.5 million guns in Australia and that there were 3 million prior to the gun buy-back scheme coming into operation. Someone's got it wrong. We suggest that the more likely error is in the Newspoll study which relies on gun owners being accurate in the information they supplied to questions made over the phone."

The 2.5 million number is your own nation's poll that plays down your own government's 4.2 million estimate based upon import numbers. Given that the buyback programs are only moderately successful and many firearms are still imported, I don't see how you can debate a figure in the millions.

All I see here is "I think", or blanket "We Australians" statements, etc. There are way too many Australian gun clubs, anti-gun control sites, etc., for me to believe in this homogenous anti-gun Australia you guys are proposing. I have known three Australians face-to-face, and all three were hunters.

Look at it in prespective:

-I am allowing that many, maybe even most Australians dislike firearms, but given the evidence I have to assume there are still millions who don't.

-You, on the other hand, are promoting this idea of a homogeneous Australia that is offended at the idea of hunting or guns, and yet owns them by the million and sports a large number of gun clubs and advocacy organizations.

Who here sounds rational to you? If you don't have guns, and if people don't want them, why do you even NEED gun laws?

It takes me all of 1 minute to find lots of Australians on the Internet who use, own and enjoy firearms. Am I supposed to believe that material is fake and believe your image of your "society"?

It takes me all of 1 minute to find lots of Australians on the Internet who use, own and enjoy firearms. Am I supposed to believe that material is fake and believe your image of your "society"?

Come on BakerStreet, you know that's not proof of anything. You could also find thousands of sites originating from the US about furries, but that hardly means Americans in general like sex with stuffed toys. The simple fact is there aren't a lot of anti-gun sites coming from Australia because it doesn't seem necessary. Part of the education system in schools involves teaching that guns are extremely dangerous and that if a child ever sees one, they should immediately tell either their parents or a police officer. In homes they must be kept apart from ammunition or the licence will be revoked. And the carrying of firearms on the street is simply illegal, full-stop. So most Australians don't even see the point in an argument about guns - you don't see them often and they're largely used by criminals or rural hicks (and who'd want to imitate them...). To make an argument for greater gun freedom seems, on an intuitive level, to be like making an argument for child-sex abusers. We can't even see the point. I think that's probably why most Australians end up flailing for counter-reasons when confronted by gun-wielding Americans. It's definitely not a part of normal Australian society, and if you ask the average Australian (and I can assure you Bakerstreet that you are very statistically lucky to have met Australian hunters exclusively) they've probably only ever seen guns either on a farm or on a police officer's hip. Unless they've been in the armed forces or at one of the most prestigious schools they've probably never fired one.

Certainly there are exceptions, and there are very good reasons for farmers and those who live in isolated areas to have guns. Sporting clubs do exist but they are rare in cities (there is less of a gun culture in urban areas, although as organised crime turns to junkie crime this is changing) and are uncommon in rural areas. But they are not common - certainly the 1 in 4 houses concept is simply untrue. Instead most gun-owners own more than one weapon in their homes and guns are also possessed in the thousands by organised crime syndicates and gangs in Sydney and Melbourne. And there are countless other weapons that through neglect (for example because they are owned by junkies) or otherwise simply leave the system without report, so import numbers or polls aren't necessarily significant in and of themselves.

In conclusion there are certainly people who want guns, and people who enjoy firing them for whatever reason. And being people with a fetish (and I use that word because I can't think of a better, stronger word than 'liking' but not as involved as love) for firearms they are highly likely to write about it online. That's what fetishists do. But it's not a traditional part of the Australian psyche, and these days it's increasingly common for people outside of urban ghettos and the farms to feel extremely uncomfortable around guns. To the extent where for most people when you go overseas and see guards carrying rifles at an airport that's the first sign that you're just not in Kansas any more, Toto.

Finally another Aussie who understands what I am trying to say.. it isnt part of our culture here. That is why for me..guns are for killing.

That is why for me..guns are for killing.

I don't quite agree with you on that one, but yeah. I think I do see what you mean.

But a policeman has a gun not to kill but to intimidate. A soldier has a gun to blow things up and to make other people think twice about coming. A naval ship has guns to sink boatloads of asylum seekers, not to kill them (just a joke!).

And sporting shooters have guns because they have crazy stares and upset other people when they get too close (and are therefore given what they want so they go away) and so they can win gold for Australia at the Olympics.

I don't see the point though in a urban citizen who isn't a sporting shooter having a gun - in Australia at least. The legal storage and use requirements make the idea of having it for self-defence laughable, unless you're lucky and the invading junkie legs it rather than make the smart move and stab you anyway (because it's not like they're easy to shoot straight without practice, and chances are you won't have time to grab the ammo as well as the gun).

Your an aussie Cacto.. and im assuming your not living in the bush somewhere.. so you can understand what I am saying and why I would have never seen a gun let alone own one.

Where as in America they are crazy about it because for them it is part of their "freedom".

How many high school shootings have happened here in Oz? none that I can think of. The last true massacre of people was at Port Arthur and I remember the outcry that that had in our communities. We hadnt seen anything like that here before, whereas Im thinking in the USA they have it as a common occerance.

Well over there they still think that executing people is right. Im glad we have moved on from that here.

BTW.. I really love how there are a few articles now about Guns on here.. Im glad I stirred the pot.. it's interesting to see the ones who claim that others are ignorant. It seems the majority are gun owners.

Why do they own guns? To shoot them! Otherwise what would be the point of having it? To bake a cake?

I don't profess to understand the US gun culture BakerStreet , so you know three Australians and have lookerd at some sites promoting ideals which fit your argument, so what, you are not an australian, you don't live here so you are making assumptions, why is it that you should be so offended that we do not share your enthusism for weaponary, like many people in your own country. Australians in the main are not obsessed with guns, nor is there is a strong culture surrounding it. As for hunters, without a permit you cannot own a gun, to get a gun here you have to be a sporting shooter, a farmer or LICENSED hunter, given this and the lack of large scary animals to take a shot at, the is little reason to hunt except for feralpigs, horses and buffolos, and the odd fox, and millions of rabits, all of the culling of these is done by porfessional hunters generally enlisted by the government themselves. Permits are hard to get, if not impossible, for any other reason, unless you purchase them on the black market. I myself grew up on a farm where we had gun to shoot wild dogs, actuall we had one, my Uncle also collects gun, mostly old classics. I have used many guns Including military weapons like SLRs, M 16, M 60s, this was due to service, yet all I learnt from this, is that unless I decide to take up target shooting I have no need for them.
Australians are not a paranoid nation we in the main do not feel trhe need to bare arms, nor is it our right. Whether you like it or not gun use in Australia is not part of our culture nor are gun users in the majority. Having said this I do know people over who would agree with on your pointof view. The difference is you can access these weapons, we can't. If you expect me to respect your views show some respect for the views of others.
As I said before the figures mentioned above quoting 2.5 million, are based on a survey, not accurate by any means. As for your claim that the gun by back scheme was a failure, well you pbviously didn't bother to look at the guns that were handed in, not to mention the amount of people who had the arms taken from, under the dob in illegal owners scheme. The reality is we as a nation are not obsessed with ownership of guns, and I think I can speak with more aurthority than yourself. Nor do we appreciate any more having the likes of some of you more well known gun owners coming over here telling us how we should do things , any more than you seem to appreciate discussing you somewhat over armed population. On the subject of whether guns kill, a gun is a weapon, therefore in the wrong hands it becomes dangerous, does it not, therefore common sense tells me thta the less guns the less gun deaths. The other point being is that In Australia you are not permitted to own auto matic or semi auto matic weapons, why? because the more bullets you pump out the higher potential for death, or injury. I find it interesting that a person from a country with such a high rate of gun related deaths would even try tpo argue anything even slightly contary to this argument. Another fact is that you have a better chance of survival from a knofe attack than you have from a high veliocity projectile, again just common sense. I am yet to meet someone who can throw a knife a few hundred metres, hitr there target and tear a gaping hole on the exit.
GUNS DON'T KILL, HOWEVER THEY DO A GREAT JOB OF ASSISTING A HUMAN TO KILL, AND FROM THE COMFORT OF A RELATIVELY LONG SAFE DISTANCE. There is not argument to support gun ownership on the level it exists in the US. NONE.
However if you guys want to have them so be it just don't try and push your bullshit arguments on us, cause we are sich of the likes of the NRAA, and Charlton Heston, preaching to us. In your country it seems that you guys have amajority of support in the populace, in ours it is the minority. VERY VERY different cultures. Which is why you would have to look real hard for a gun shop in most towns in this country,. We don't need them because we are not shit scared of an attack from some unseen enemy.

One other point from personal experience, I have a fried with nly one legs, why? because the other one was blowen of by a high caliber weapon, a gun, by accident, another was shotaccidently by his brother and is now deaf, he is very lucky to be alive, I have another friend missing an ear, another who is blind because he was shot point blank with a blank cartridge, amazingly they are all anti gun. The guy who shot the first kid and they were kids when this happen, is now serving life for Rape and assult with a deadly weapon, he is also serving time for arms hold up, and also attemped to attack my wife, guns don't kill but in the wrong hands can do a lot of damage, which is why we have strict gun laws. You can do more damage, with less chance for defence with a gun than any other weapon, add this to the range you can do this from , and the power behind this and I would say that guns are very dangerous, too dangerous.

"Certainly there are exceptions, and there are very good reasons for farmers and those who live in isolated areas to have guns."

Which means there are very good reasons for some people to own guns, which means PB's point is a fallacy...

'Sporting clubs do exist but they are rare in cities (there is less of a gun culture in urban areas, although as organised crime turns to junkie crime this is changing) and are uncommon in rural areas."

Last time I looked at a map of Australia, there was, oh, would you say... a sizable area left of Australia that wasn't urban? LOL.

Is Sydney what you would call a "city"? What about the Sydney International Shooting Centre? Brisbane? Hell, here's a link to 133 gun clubs in a single list. The same site only had 28 fencing schools. Using PB's logic Australians must think swords are more distasteful than guns...

I found links to ranges and clubs all over Australia, I even found a High School shooting club.

In the city I live there are like 5 ranges of moderate size and only one has a website... How many dozens more don't have websites?

As easy as this is for me thousands of miles away, I believe devoutly if this were reversed you guys could pick up a "yellow pages" and destroy your own argument. and I put, oh, 5 minutes into it. The problem is Pheonixboi doesn't really want to learn about his "society", because then he won't be able to justify himself by claiming his ideals are "Australian"...

"As I said before the figures mentioned above quoting 2.5 million, are based on a survey, not accurate by any means."

And again, that survey was the LOWEST figure. Your government audit placed it at like 4 million. Hell, you have import statistics, do they just import them and immediately destroy them?

"Which is why you would have to look real hard for a gun shop in most towns in this country,"

Like I said, a 5 minute google proves that false, and I'm sure if you cracked a phone book you'd be forced to revise "real hard". Here's 36 that were listed for Greater Sydney

" One other point from personal experience, I have a fried with nly one legs, why? because the other one was blowen of by a high caliber weapon, a gun, by accident, another was shotaccidently by his brother and is now deaf, he is very lucky to be alive, I have another friend missing an ear, another who is blind because he was shot point blank with a blank cartridge, amazingly they are all anti gun. The guy who shot the first kid and they were kids when this happen, is now serving life for Rape and assult with a deadly weapon, he is also serving time for arms hold up, and also attemped to attack my wife..."

Good LORD, DUDE... If Australia is a gun-free country where only the rarest people shoot guns, you have to be the unluckiest person alive to know that many people harmed by guns. "If" being the operative word...

Perhaps that's the result of dealing with guns with fear and ignorance instead of education. I've been around guns all my life in "gun crazy America" and I couldn't touch that horror show you related.