The beginning of the end of the Catholic Church

on Apr 20, 2005

However this is an argument over how God is supposed to be served according to His word, not a suggestion to change with the times. God does not change.

SNS--I'm not 100% sure that I am understanding what you are saying, so forgive me in advance if I completely misrepresent your position (it is not intention, I assure you). I agree that God does not change--but surely the church can. It was not that long ago (in terms of church history) that one could use bible verses to support slavery, or keeping women silent. I believe that the Word can be misinterpreted, and believe that it has been many times over.

I mean, if women are not meant to be leaders of the Church, clearly other christian churches are misinformed, right?

17

messybuu

on Apr 21, 2005

I'd rather have the Catholic Church lose a few members than to modernize to be "hip and cool" for the kids. If the Catholic Church were to treasure PC-dom more than scripture, then I would have no respect for it.
If you guys want a religion that's all "Happy happy joy joy love peace and candy land" then why don't you join one of those other Christian churches that don't think of anything as a sin (unless of course things they dislike).

18

Dr Guy

on Apr 21, 2005

If the church didn't change with the times, it would still be allowing slavery. It is not a valid argument to say that the church must forever remain the way it once was--I don't think it needs to back away from its tenets--but it needs to move toward more fully upholding "The Word"--and that means remenbering that we are all God's children.

I am not sure the Church ever supported slavery. They may have, as they did with other issues, turned a blind eye to it, but I dont think they actually condoned it.

That being said, the rules of the church are not the same as the teachings and tenets of the Church. Thus, they can easily allow the ordination of women (and in time I beleive they will), without compromising their tenets. That was an administrative decision born of the male dominated society of the middle ages as there use to be Women priests and probably will again. The same with Married priests. But that is a harder subject as the Church is a hard task master and demands a lot from its officials.

Yes, Pope Benedict XVI is very conservative, but as Baker said, he was not chosen to be an innovator, but to be a transitioner. By the time the next Pope is chosen, we may have a lot more Bishops and Cardinals like Walter Sullivan, than Joseph Ratzinger.

Your time will come eventually. The only problem with that sentiment is that 'eventually, we all are dead'. But the Church will continue, even beyond us.

19

Phoenixboi

on Apr 21, 2005

Thanks Shades for understanding what I am trying to say.

Although I firmly believe that the Church as an institution needs to radically change in order to move with the times, I believe that the consciousness of Humanity will come to realise that it no longer needs these institutions in order live a life inspired by God.

Therefore through these times of great change we will come to the conclusion that we are the masters of our destinies and no institution or priest or pope needs to intercede between us and God.

20

shadesofgrey

on Apr 21, 2005

I'd rather have the Catholic Church lose a few members than to modernize to be "hip and cool" for the kids. If the Catholic Church were to treasure PC-dom more than scripture, then I would have no respect for it.
If you guys want a religion that's all "Happy happy joy joy love peace and candy land" then why don't you join one of those other Christian churches that don't think of anything as a sin (unless of course things they dislike).

EJ--it is not our job to judge sinners. Everyone sins, and no sin is any better or worse than any other--God calls me to love my brothers and sisters, and while I might not be perfect in doing this, I think the Church needs to set an example for its followers. I'm not talking about "hip and cool," I'm talking about more accurately following the Word of God.

What I find funny is that so many people who think that Europe shouldn't be telling the US what to do, think that they, as non-Catholics, get to tell the Church what to do. If Catholics want the church modernized, or even if they don't, I don't think that the non-Catholic opinion is going to play into the debate much.

I am not sure the Church ever supported slavery. They may have, as they did with other issues, turned a blind eye to it, but I dont think they actually condoned it.

Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of submission.

21

Dr Guy

on Apr 21, 2005

Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of submission.

No, one is active and the other passive. To see someone get mugged and not shoot the perp is not the same as condoning mugging.

What I find funny is that so many people who think that Europe shouldn't be telling the US what to do, think that they, as non-Catholics, get to tell the Church what to do. If Catholics want the church modernized, or even if they don't, I don't think that the non-Catholic opinion is going to play into the debate much.

I fully concur, and before Pope John Paul II, I doubt that any non-catholics would have cared or voiced an opinion. So at least in that, I find it encouraging that others are vocal, even if as you say, it will not make a difference.

22

shadesofgrey

on Apr 21, 2005

No, one is active and the other passive. To see someone get mugged and not shoot the perp is not the same as condoning mugging.

Last time I checked, a sin was a sin. There is no heirarchy in God's eyes--or did I miss some new Church teaching?

Dante wrote(and I concur), "the hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

23

COL Gene

on Apr 21, 2005

Some of the major issues that face the Catholic Church are a lack of priests and how it addresses the pedophiles and homosexuality within the church. The issue of celibacy is not based in Scripture and for the first 1100 years priests were allowed to marry. The issue is one of having enough priests to run the churches not of whether it's a sin for priests to marry. The issue of mistreating children and homosexuality is against the will of the Creator per every Christian religion I've ever seen as well as Judaism. If the new pope ignores the need for more priests and doesn't deal more effectively with homosexuality and pedophiles in the church, it will be the church that suffers. celibacy is not something that was ordained by Christ however mistreatment of children was very much condemned by our Lord.

24

ParaTed2k

on Apr 21, 2005

True, ColGene, many of the practices of the Catholic Church are merely traditions, others are based on hard doctrine. The Bible is also like that, there are examples of cultural traditions of the day, and there is hard doctrine. The leadership of the Catholic Church is looked to by their members to identify the differences, and preach accordingly.

I don't know enough about the Catholic church to be able to say what is based on tradition and what is based on doctrine, but from the outside looking in, I'd say the pedophile problem is much more pressing for them than the whether or not priests should be able to marry. You do make a good point about maybe they would have more willing to enter the priesthood, if they could marry.

25

Dr Guy

on Apr 21, 2005

Last time I checked, a sin was a sin. There is no heirarchy in God's eyes--or did I miss some new Church teaching?

A sin is a sin. But not shooting the mugger is not the same as endorsing the mugger. The latter is a sin, the former is not.

26

Dr Guy

on Apr 21, 2005

Dante wrote(and I concur), "the hottest places in hell are reserved for those, who in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."

I dont think the church was ever neutral. They have always condemened slavery. They just sometimes did not do anything about it.

27

COL Gene

on Apr 21, 2005

The church should not just do what is popular but they must have the priests to function. If the celibacy is preventing men from entering the priesthood and if the church refuses to ordaine women, how will it is a function in a growing world?

28

Dr Guy

on Apr 21, 2005

The church should not just do what is popular but they must have the priests to function. If the celibacy is preventing men from entering the priesthood and if the church refuses to ordaine women, how will it is a function in a growing world?

What you say is all correct. And I truly beleive that in time, if they do not solve the priest issue, they will ordain women and allow married priest (in that order). But the Church is not going to be rushed into it. Even if a progressive was elected Pope, it would be years before the ordination of women would start.

I still see it happening. Just not as soon as many would like, myself included.

29

messybuu

on Apr 21, 2005

EJ--it is not our job to judge sinners. Everyone sins, and no sin is any better or worse than any other--God calls me to love my brothers and sisters, and while I might not be perfect in doing this, I think the Church needs to set an example for its followers. I'm not talking about "hip and cool," I'm talking about more accurately following the Word of God.

And they can set this example without condoning homosexuality, condoning pre-marital sex, etc.! Love isn't about approving of everything people do. It's about loving them in spite of it.

What I find funny is that so many people who think that Europe shouldn't be telling the US what to do, think that they, as non-Catholics, get to tell the Church what to do. If Catholics want the church modernized, or even if they don't, I don't think that the non-Catholic opinion is going to play into the debate much.

And yet, here we have non-Catholics on both sides of the issues and Catholics on both sides of the issues, and let's be honest: the Catholic Church is not a political party. Unless it's truly corrupt, I'm sure it considers Truth to be more important than numbers.

Sins of omission are just as bad as sins of submission.

The Church, consisting of humans, isn't perfect, but condoning other sin just because it's politically correct will not correct that sin. Two wrongs do not make a right.

30

messybuu

on Apr 21, 2005

If the church gave into political influence and popular opinion, I'd lose all respect for it...

Amen! Sure, the Church can "evolve," but it cannot ever forsakes Scripture to appease non-Catholics and Catholics who don't even agree whole-heartedly with the Bible. A Catholic Church with only 10,000 members that strives for Truth is better than a Catholic Church with billions of members that strives to be like the Church in Dogma.